RE: C4

From: Ben Goertzel (
Date: Sun Dec 15 2002 - 18:58:31 MST

I don't think that Eliezer is in C4 personally. It seems to me like he
experiences basically the same states of consciousness as the rest of us
creative geek visionaries.... Although of course everyone has their own
flavors of the states of consciousness, and we visit them with somewhat
different frequencies....

Sorry if my reply seemed to belabor the obvious !! I can get overly
didactic sometimes, I guess...

Regarding "we never create, we're simply allowed to experience something
that is always present" -- to me this comes down to the definition of "I"
(the "we" in your sentence). Remember Nietzsche's statement that
consciousness is like a commander who takes responsibility for the actions
of his troops.... In a sense "we" never do anything; it is just done and
then "we" (the conscious "I") take credit for it.... And the unconscious
forces that "cause" our actions are rarely isolated brain processes, they
are generally tied in with broader physical, cultural, social patterns ...
something outside ourselves. So I'm not sure how different creative
activity is from *everything else*, in terms of the role of self and the
role of interior vs. exterior causality.... It is clear that in what you
call C4 one is atypically *aware* of the lack of "causal actor" status for
the conscious "I", though...


  -----Original Message-----
  From: []On Behalf Of Arona
  Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 8:47 PM
  Subject: C4


  I did not ask if Eli was enlightened but whether he was in C4 permanently.
What in my words, made you think I did not understand that there are several
states of consciousness ??? *smile* I'm not really interested in the whole
LSD thing, I was just drawing a parallel. Same for enlightenment, just a
parallel. You missed my point: we never create, we're simply allowed to
experience something that is always present. I believe that without that
'whatever' that is shared with us, we'd never create anything. We're way too
arrogant thinking that it's coming from us. I'm not a religious guy, I just
feel that any act of creation, love or whatever you wish to call it, does
not come from us, never did and never will. It's like a river, and sometimes
it flows through some of us. It's very hard form me to formalise it without
sounding like some Born Again Christian or some similar stuff....


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