From: Mike (email@example.com)
Date: Fri Jun 04 2004 - 01:57:40 MDT
> > Since you used the gravity example, I'll use a
> > similar example. I think
> > that saying there must be an objective morality is
> > like saying there
> > must be an objective time system. But in the end
> > it's all relative to
> > the observer, isn't it?
> Nope. Bad example ;) Even in general relatively
> there is still an objective ordering of events: Given
> an observer that records event x and records event y
> as occuring later than x, if light from x had time to
> pass through the point where y occurred before y
> occurred, then x is in the ASBOLUTE past of y for all observers.
> Time does have some flexibility yes, but there is
> still an absolute ordering of events even in
> relatively theory.
As you point out, in that particular case there is.
> > Remove humans from the universe and where is
> > morality? You can't say
> > the same thing about gravity. Seems to me the
> > concept of morality is a
> > human invention. What morality is there in galaxies colliding,
> > animals in the food chain eating each other, etc?
> Remove humans from the universe you say? What about
> any alien civilizations that might exist?
Ok, remove them too. Same question.
> Don't be so sure there is no morality in: 'galaxies
> colliding, animals in the food chain eating each
> other'. There are theories of consciousness which
> ascribe some degree of sentience to everything
Are you saying sentience implies morality? (And I'll believe rocks are
sentient when somebody can prove it).
> > If you were the last human alive, and the race would
> > die out after you
> > were gone, is there anything you could do to be
> > immoral?
> Quite possibly. What about alien cilivizations else
> where in the universe? Humans still living in
> alternative branches of the quantum multiverse?
> Humans in the past? Any other sentients that might
> exist in the future? The actions taken by the last
> human alive could still be related to all the things
> mentioned, even if these actions only had a tiny
Since you so strongly want to pull more sentients back into the
question, is it accurate to conclude that you feel absolute
morality applies to multiple sentients but would not apply
to a single sentient if it could be truly isolated from all
other sentients for all time?
> > To answer one of your questions, I think that there
> > is no objective
> > standard by which you can say that Ghandi is better
> > than Hitler. It's
> > only your rules of morality that tell you that
> > Hitler is bad (and I
> > would personally agree). But in some societies, the
> > most vicious
> > warrior gets the most honor and privilege. By his
> > society, he's a hero.
> > By their morality, he's doing everything right. And
> > if you ask their
> > opinion, they would tell you Ghandi is weak, a
> > coward, and not someone
> > to emulate. One obvious example of this is the
> > Samurai in Japan a few
> > hundred years ago. If they had to guess at the
> > nature of the "objective
> > morality", their guess would look nothing like mine.
> > How can our
> > moralities come from the same source and be so
> > different?
> Are our moralitites really so totally different
> though? Deduct out the differences and I think you'd
> still find a great common of commonality.
> The answer
> > comes when I answer your other questions:
> > > by what standard would they define 'best'?
> > > Why would it be good if people thought 'longer or
> > > faster'? What is 'wisdom'? It would seem that an
> > > objective morality is still implied.
> > Doesn't "best" just end up being, in the long run,
> > whatever maximizes
> > your potential to survive and reproduce? The
> > Samurai think best is
> > being better with the sword. We think best is
> > thinking faster. It all
> > depends on where you live.
> > Mike W.
> 'best' might possibly be related to whatever maximizes
> your potential to survive, but even if this was so:
> the fact that the laws of physics are the same
> everywhere mean that there would still be some
> objective standards for deciding what maximized
> 'potential to survive', no matter where you lived.
I don't think we disagree on the laws of physics. What part
of the laws of physics are you calling objective morality?
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