Re: [sl4] Re: Uploads coming first would be good, right?

From: Krekoski Ross (
Date: Thu Feb 12 2009 - 22:53:34 MST

I find it hard to buy that quantum effects will not diverge two minds fairly
quickly, even if they are in a symmetrical room (Which as we've discussed
cannot be perfectly symmetrical in a real universe). There are two
possibilities-- either our brains are quantum computers or they're not. The
former possibility has no evidence aside from the odd circumstantial
observation, so we can ignore it. The latter possibility, that our brains do
not depend at all on any aspect of quantum mechanics and can be described in
purely classical terms I do take issue with. We require random input.
Thermodynamic "noise" is omnipresent. Quantum effects affect the precise
movements of thermodynamic noise in our brains. Even if our brain is
describable in classic terms, it is still a fairly chaotic system, and small
changes can affect things in a large way. Besides, add two beings into our
impossible symmetrical room, and a tiny divergence in motion for example
will, if the two entities are looking at each other, for example, lead to a
large discrepancy in input quite quickly-- even if the thermodynamic
background noise causes our hand to twitch slightly differently, this will
cause a rapid divergence in input. Especially when the two entities
communicate. You can't divorce the classical from the quantum.

Your statement about being reborn a million times a nanosecond is, I'm
assuming, tongue in cheek. Its the information structure that is important
(I might even be tempted to say that information is all that exists, but I'm
not claiming that per se). The information structure doesnt change since you
can't destroy information. This isn't an essentialist argument, I'm not
trying to describes the boundaries of a given living entity, but seeing it
in terms of information might be an interesting approach to try (Hofstadter,
has an interesting beginnings of such a framework).

> John K. Clark writes...
> Chaos is an interesting phenomenon but it does no apply to all complex
> things; generally small changes in starting conditions change one pseudo
> random pattern into a very different pseudo random pattern. It is much
> less a factor if logic is involved and probably intelligence in general.
> For example, calculating the first million digits of Pi is quite
> complex, and if just one digit in the sequence is wrong subsequent
> digits will be wrong too, but 2 computers will almost always produce the
> exact same sequence even if they operated at slightly different
> temperatures or even if they were made by different manufactures. It's
> hard to believe that if a nat farted in your third grade classroom you
> would have a different political philosophy today; I think it would take
> a very long time for chaos alone to make minds diverge.
> And if you insist that for you to survive every atom in your body must
> be identical down to the quantum level and every particle in those atoms
> be entangled in just the same way then you die and a new being is born
> about a million times a nanosecond. That really doesn't seem like a
> fruitful way to look at the
> matter to me.
> John K Clark
> --
> John K Clark
> --
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